Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60

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Malcolm Donald
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Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60

Post by Malcolm Donald » Mon May 04, 2015 6:15 am

Downwind leg. Wind gusting 18 -25 knots
Same two boats as mentioned in previous post are now running downwind on stbd with the wind five degrees on the stbd quarter.
The overtaking leeward boat is two boat lengths ahead and one and a half boat lengths to leeward.
Both boats are on the plane.
Without warning the leeward boat broaches and is planted squarely in front of the windward boat.
The time from the initiation of the brooch to contact is two seconds max.
The race observer calls contact.
The leeward boat hails windward boat keep clear.
The windward boat hails time to keep clear.
After second hail by the observer the windward boat does a penalty turn.
Does ISAF Case Book 60 cover this situation?

Dave Alston
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Re: Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60

Post by Dave Alston » Mon May 04, 2015 3:00 pm

Notwithstanding it this is in the case book or otherwise I believe the rule to be clear as clear can be.

From your description :- The overtaking LEEWARD BOAT is two boat lengths ahead and one and a half boat lengths to leeward.

The boat that was the overtaking is now clear ahead and the much misunderstood rule 17 - Obligation to keep clear is not applicable.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to LEEWARD of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail ABOVE HER PROPER course while they remain on the same tack AND OVERLAPPED within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

The PROPER COURSE in this case being directly to the mark, it being a run. i.e. No silly luffing and being a nuisance

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and OVERLAPPED, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

i.e. No silly bearing away and being a nuisance


12 ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead.

i.e. No sailing up the back of the boat and being a nuisance trying to take the boat in front's wind. Just pass to leeward like a gentleman

So clearly these rules obligate both skippers in some way and to behave in particular way and not to bang into each other. It is similarly clear that neither rule take precedence or negates the other i.e. they are all in force.

That the:-
• Wind is gusting 18 -25 knots
• Both boats are on the plane.
• Without warning the leeward boat broaches and is planted squarely in front of the windward boat.
• The time from the initiation of the brooch to contact is two seconds max.

I would suggest has no real bearing on the matter does it if you search your heart?.

That the leeward boat hails windward boat keep clear or :-

• The windward boat hails time to keep clear.
• After second hail by the observer the windward boat does a penalty turn.

The skipper of the boat that was overtaken should realise that the roles have reversed and he is now obligated to keep clear particularly if he gain ground on the boat –
It sounds like there was a lot of chatting going on when there should have been and little more stick work -

The Observer is simply an observer - he/it/she does not decide who is at fault or owes a penalty unless by agreement your CLUB has decided that the Observer is a Judge of Fact and can decide on the spot as it were. - But it is Sunday and so who needs the agro - do turn - mostly for not reading the rules or probably not having a copy .

We used to call Mast Astern in the good old days of real sailing to signal the end of the obligation to keep clear and the end of luffing rights of the boat attacking.

No doubt John Ball and you will disagree.- But this has happened to me at an inter- National Event and I lost the protest ( I claimed no opportunity ) - Messers Bantock and Zammit will confirm this. And quite rightly ...
Dave

John Ball
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Re: Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60

Post by John Ball » Mon May 04, 2015 3:03 pm

Hi again,
Again Case 60 is not a good precedent for this. If the contact occurred in the zone, then normally, the inside boat is entitled to mark room and the windward/astern boat has to keep clear. However this is more complex as the definition of Room, includes the phrase - in the existing conditions - which suggests give lots of room in gusty planing conditions - but it also requires the ROW boat to be 'seamanlike' - and a bad broach may not fit that part of the definition. However R 21 again exonerates the mark room boat specifically for breaking R 16.

John
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Re: Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60

Post by John Ball » Mon May 04, 2015 4:18 pm

Broach at downwind mark.jpg
Here is a diagram that I think is close to the description

John
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Re: Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60

Post by John Ball » Mon May 04, 2015 4:40 pm

Now looking at the diagram, I think that Windward was giving mark room as required by R 18, and Leeward is not protected under R21 in this case - perhaps Gordon will comment on this.

John
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Re: Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60

Post by John Ball » Mon May 04, 2015 5:48 pm

I did some more reading - Case 75 is very interesting. While not an exact duplicate, there are some interesting implications.

The other rule to consider is R 18.4. As Leeward must gybe to round the mark, R 18.4 may apply. When the leeward boat broaches, does she move further away from the mark? If Yes, then she breaks R 18.4.

John
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Re: Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60

Post by John Ball » Mon May 04, 2015 8:27 pm

Sorry everyone - please ignore the last three posts - I thought the situation was nearing the downwind mark - my mistake. I would delete them, but the forum does not offer that option.

On re-reading the description, this is an R 16 situation and Ahead/leeward is ROW and has to allow behind/windward room to stay clear when Leeward suddenly alters course.

John
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Mike Ewart
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Re: Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60

Post by Mike Ewart » Tue May 05, 2015 12:55 pm

My supposition for what it is worth is that the windward boat must be given room and opportunity to keep clear if the windward boat had attempted to miss the broached boat and failed then he is not at fault if no attempt was made then I think he is at fault
Mike Ewart

Malcolm Donald
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Re: Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60

Post by Malcolm Donald » Wed May 06, 2015 11:06 am

It all happened so quickly. One second to react - do I bear away or luff up. Push the control to bear away. Crash.

John Ball
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Re: Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60

Post by John Ball » Wed May 06, 2015 2:37 pm

You should try to avoid as fast as you can react - if you do so and fail to stay clear, then the other boat broke R 16.

The rules don't care which way you turn to avoid - but luffing is usually faster and more effective in these conditions.

John
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