IRSA New Policy on Prohibited Events - and the penalty for attending one

General chat about anything to do with Model Yachting

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Dave Alston
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: IRSA New Policy on Prohibited Events - and the penalty for attending one

Post by Dave Alston » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:08 am

Gordon,
Thank you for that well considered post as a Judge . However you have simply regurgitated World Sailing Constitution / Regulations.

Fellas,

That the European Commission might have decided that International Skating Union rules imposing severe penalties on athletes participating in speed skating competitions not authorised by the ISU are in breach of EU antitrust law seems hardly applicable to Amateur Radio Sailing.

The European Commission only has jurisdiction in European Union and what BREXIT has to do with it is a mystery.

One does believe that the point has been missed as it is so often the case as we dash off into riotous indignation over IRSA simply making the point that competing in a non-sanctioned event may lead to sanction by World Sailing without considering why they might have deemed it necessary to do so.


Joysway Hobby (HK) Ltd


Whilst I do not know or pretend to know the full background of this saga, I understand it to be related to what I dub as the Joysway Hobby (HK) Ltd. Classes i.e. DF65 and DF95 wanting to stage an International Event.

Well ! more power to them.

Why in heavens name would top International IOM/ RM skippers wish to compete in such an event?

This was intended as a Feeder Class, a Class for the beginner to hone his skills and migrate to the International Classes not the Converse.

This subject was discussed at the MYA AGM to some degree. Forgive me but I forget his name, spoke most eloquently but rather unconvincingly on the subject followed by an equally eloquent but unconvincing response from the MYA Council who really are not involved with this and really should not be.

Nothing stops Joysway Hobby (HK) Ltd or their Agents from organising an event with or without World Sailing or IRSA Sanction just as long as they do not promote it as being a World or Regional Champion Event.

And even if the competitors and organizers are sanctioned by World Sailing what is the harm, they are not about to compete in an International Radio Sailing Event . So this is rather an empty threat.

I do not see Joysway Hobby (HK) Ltd losing any sleep over this.
Is Joysway sponsoring the proposed event, I think not. How about Joysway staging the event at Haikou Island?
Joysway could arrange discounted hotel accommodation.

Dave
.

gordon davies
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 5:45 pm

Re: IRSA New Policy on Prohibited Events - and the penalty for attending one

Post by gordon davies » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:45 pm

Dave, I believe that I 'regurgitated' the texts that apply in this context. This may be seen as useful contribution to the debate. The key point is that if care is taken when organising the regatta there is little reason for an event to fall foul of WS regulations.

I do not agree with your point that top sailors would not want to compete in 'straight out of the box' classes. Historically, there have been many cases of boats intended for pleasure or beginner sailing attracting top sailors. and being used for major international regattas... Lasers, Toppers, Hobie Cats. Bruce Kirby designed the Laser as an easy to rig beach boat, not as a future Olympic class.

I would imagine that many top sailors would be attracted by a strict single manufacturer one design class. Off the shelf boats and rigs, no long wait for a new boat, easy to charter boats when travelling abroad, all competitors sailing the same boat, no interminable discussions about which is the best design for the conditions or excuses that 'I had the wrong boat'...

Dave Alston
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: IRSA New Policy on Prohibited Events - and the penalty for attending one

Post by Dave Alston » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:19 pm

Sorry Gordon BUT
We are discussing Radio Sailing
a) It is not deemed as being a SPORT
b) It is NOT recognised as an Olympic Event
c) It is NOT a dingy

And NEVER will be for good reason. and neither is Slot Car Racing


You cannot fail to agree that in seeking Affiliation to World Sailing via IRSA we accept the World Sailing Terms and conditions of Affiliation. IRSA have not deviated from this and irrespective of what the European Commission may ruled upon we are obliged to abide by those terms and conditions or suffer the consequences of violating our obligation.

Lets not wander off into a discussion of why a Experience sailor may or may not wish to compete in an Introductory Class.

Similarly let us not wander off into a discussion of how why a Lasers, Toppers and Hobie Cats became recognised by World Sailing - They simply did it the proper way. And Paper Tigres died - Yes I was there.

Dave

Derek Priestley
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: IRSA New Policy on Prohibited Events - and the penalty for attending one

Post by Derek Priestley » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:33 pm

As a retired gentleman, of a certain age, I love my sport & do all that I can to promote it. I also like to race in all the events that I can.

In 2017 I have raced in
club events in DF65 DF95 Vane A class Vane M class even Vane36" class.
Open & Ranking events for IOM & RM classes.
National Championships for RA, IOM, DF65, & 95, and "Old Mans Championship" for RM. I was also PRO for RM 10r & Vane A week.

The point I'm trying to make is that I just want to race my boats at any level. Be it the forth coming IOM European championship, the RM World Championship or the first International gathering for DF95's As long as my finances will stretch, and "you know who" is happy, I would like to do them all!!


THIS IS FROM DEREK PRIESTLEY THE INDIVIDUAL SKIPPER!! NOT THE MYA PRESIDENT!!

gordon davies
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 5:45 pm

Re: IRSA New Policy on Prohibited Events - and the penalty for attending one

Post by gordon davies » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:24 pm

Dave,
We will have to agree to differ. For me, Radio sailing is an integral, and important, part of the SPORT of sailing.

Radio sailing meets all the criteria of the definition of sport adopted by Sports Accord (the association regrouping the majority of international sports federations.

Our sport is administered by World Sailing. IRSA is a member of World Sailing, as is the MYA, through its membership of the RYA. I should point out that the two affiliations are distinct. One link between the two is that the national members of IRSA are WS Member National Authorities (the members of World Sailing) or an organisation delegated by that MNA (as in UK where the RYA delegates its membership to MYA. It is a condition of affiliation to IRSA that a country be affiliated to World Sailing.

Radio sailing has made an important contribution to the development of the whole sport, and continues to produce thought-provoking innovations that can be usefully adopted elsewhere. In the same way radio sailing can benefit from lessons learnt elsewhere in the sport. One example is the development of Single Manufacturer One Designs (be they 65cm radio sailing boats, dinghies or even offshore racers such as the Figaro).

I think you missed my point regarding the Laser etc - they were intended to be entry level leisure boats. To the great surprise of the original designers and builders these classes attracted many top sailors who appreciated the one design concept. I would not be surprised if this were to happen with one or more of the 'out-of-box' radio sailing classes.

Finally, I would agree with Derek. We should encourage all forms of racing, and use the rules and regulations of our sport to facilitate as wide a varietyof events as possible.

Dave Alston
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: IRSA New Policy on Prohibited Events - and the penalty for attending one

Post by Dave Alston » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:54 pm

Gordon,
How can we possibly differ if you do not have a point of view to differ with, with respect the subject.

Regurgitating RYA, MYA and IRSA affiliation structures and how Model Boats once was the platform of full size boat design it again totally irrelevant.

Let us Stick with the point and what is you point of view ' As a Judge ' It being:--

1/ Can an event not by sanctioned WS or IRSA be legitimately be described as a World or Regional event.

2/ Is a suspension / ban or other form of sanction on competing in a World Sailing / IRSA event reasonable if you compete in a Non-sanctioned Event?

3/ Is the European Commission's ruling applicable to World Sailing / IRSA and is World Sailing / IRSA compelled in any way to revise it's rules by this ruling ?

4/ Should WS or IRSA be compelled to recognise a new Class or is It the responsibility of a Class Association to seek recognition

5/ Should a sub-class, i.e. a class within a class be granted separate International status namely DF65 and RJ65


And no I did not miss the point with respect to the Laser = particularly as I was sailing Fin Class at the time of its arrival and was well aware of how it decimated the Finn Fleet in a few seasons and how all the Fin Sailors basically re-equipped with Lasers in the end.
But that is not relevant to Radio Sailing and this is Radio Sailing

And yes Derek we all want to sail. However given your comments at the AGM - You clearly will only compete in MYA / IRSA sanctioned events

No one questions your devotion or anyone's devotion for that matter.

But the problem is :-
1/ Just how many boats does one need to own to do this on a regular basis
2/ How does one encourage on-going participation in start up classes when it is the IOM / RM skippers claiming ALL the top spots

We all want the same thing, it is how this is achieved that is the question.

And why pray tell restrict ourselves to Joysway products .

gordon davies
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 5:45 pm

Re: IRSA New Policy on Prohibited Events - and the penalty for attending one

Post by gordon davies » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:08 pm

David,

Step 1 - identify what the rules and regulations state, and what this means (I presume that this is what you call 'regurgitating')

Step2 Apply the rules and regulations to a given situation

Step 3 If Step 2 produces outcomes that are not considered desirable then debate what needs to be changed to produces a desired outcome.

Step 4 Work on implementing changes.


1/ Can an event not by sanctioned WS or IRSA be legitimately be described as a World or Regional event.

All World Championships have to be approved by WS. There are several ways of obtaining approval for radio sailing events, only one of which involves IRSA. See my previous post

2/ Is a suspension / ban or other form of sanction on competing in a World Sailing / IRSA event reasonable if you compete in a Non-sanctioned Event?

Disciplinary action MAY be taken by World Sailing against sailors participating in an event that WS has declared to be prohibited. Prohibition is not automatic,WS has to decide to prohibit an event. IRSA has no power either to prohibit an event or to discipline a sailor who participates in a prohibited event.

Bans for participating in prohibited events are very rare, and would only be justified if there was a serious breach of regulations, and at the end of a long procedure.

3/ Is the European Commission's ruling applicable to World Sailing / IRSA and is World Sailing / IRSA compelled in any way to revise it's rules by this ruling ?

Maybe. We will not know until this ruling has been tested in the courts. I suspect that any judgement will only apply to professional sport, and that sporting organisations will be lobbying hard to obtain a modified ruling. EU Competition rulings tend to favour a very neo-liberal/ free (unregulated) market interpretations that are not necessarily supported by other EU institutions.

4/ Should WS or IRSA be compelled to recognise a new Class or is It the responsibility of a Class Association to seek recognition

For WS an application is required, however in WS it is the Class Association that is designated. Within IRSA the situation is more confused - Class Associations may become Associate or Provisional members (see IRSA Con 5.1). However IRSA Con 2 seems to indicate that an IRSA Class status is not directly related to a Class Association
The text reads 'The granting and withdrawal of IRSA Class status'. No mention of the Class Association.
This confusion is repeated in Con 9.1:
'The government of IRSA Classes may be delegated to an International Class Association.'

This seems to indicate that IRSA is the governing body of IRSA Classes which it may decide to delegate to a Class Association. It is a requirement of recognition that an active class association is operating. However in the class rules voted in 2016 it is stated
'Where one does not exist, the functions of the ICA, as specified in these class rules, shall be carried out by the IRSA.'

So: Neither WS or IRSA can be compelled to recognise a new class.
For WS the class association must apply for recognition.
For IRSA, the class association does not seem to be obligatory. IRSA can declare that IRSA is actively functioning as a class association and apply to IRSA for IRSA recognition!

5/ Should a sub-class, i.e. a class within a class be granted separate International status namely DF65 and RJ65

This has already happened within WS - International Moth/Europe, Laser one hull, 3 rigs, three classes. Other classes sail quite happily using several versions of the class rules - International 14s, 5.5M, 6 M... I beleive that the class association should choes what is best for the future of the class. Unfortunately we now have 3 'classes' DF65, RG65 and IRSA 65. I do not know if any boat can conform to all 3 years.

Hope this answers your questions

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